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	<title>Comments on: Graduating into a recession</title>
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	<description>Dispatches from a legal profession on the brink</description>
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		<title>By: Blawg Review #214 &#171; Charon QC</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-884&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-884</link>
		<dc:creator>Blawg Review #214 &#171; Charon QC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 13:18:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-884</guid>
		<description>[...] blog has much wisdom and experience to impart on law firm and market issues and a recent post Graduating into a Recession is of universal application and interest to law students from many [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blog has much wisdom and experience to impart on law firm and market issues and a recent post Graduating into a Recession is of universal application and interest to law students from many [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Michele Allinotte</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-883&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-883</link>
		<dc:creator>Michele Allinotte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 02:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-883</guid>
		<description>I agree with the closing comments about the need for lawyers outside of urban areas. I have practiced in two communities in Ontario. Both have a serious need for lawyers in all areas of law. The quality of work is great and the quality of life is even better. I have wondered if current economic conditions (and future conditions) will lead more young lawyers to consider a career outside of the large markets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the closing comments about the need for lawyers outside of urban areas. I have practiced in two communities in Ontario. Both have a serious need for lawyers in all areas of law. The quality of work is great and the quality of life is even better. I have wondered if current economic conditions (and future conditions) will lead more young lawyers to consider a career outside of the large markets.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Hull</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-880&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-880</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Hull</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 01:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-880</guid>
		<description>Thanks,  Jordan.  An internship, or paying a good firm a stipend of some sort to learn how to practice law, is a serious idea (one whose time has come).  It  is an excellent investment for persons serious about  practicing law.  Find a firm--large or small--that will work hard at teaching you.  Stay there a couple of years.  Find a  tough &quot;residency&quot;, one well worth the sweat;  you will not regret it, whether you stay with the firm or not.   But don&#039;t apply if all you ever wanted was a job, a title, and nice suits.  Law is hard.  Learning to practice law is even harder.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks,  Jordan.  An internship, or paying a good firm a stipend of some sort to learn how to practice law, is a serious idea (one whose time has come).  It  is an excellent investment for persons serious about  practicing law.  Find a firm&#8211;large or small&#8211;that will work hard at teaching you.  Stay there a couple of years.  Find a  tough &#8220;residency&#8221;, one well worth the sweat;  you will not regret it, whether you stay with the firm or not.   But don&#8217;t apply if all you ever wanted was a job, a title, and nice suits.  Law is hard.  Learning to practice law is even harder.</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan Furlong</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-875&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-875</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan Furlong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 19:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-875</guid>
		<description>Graeme, you&#039;re absolutely right that the Canadian new-lawyer entry system contains a lot more automatic stabilizers than the US or UK versions. In addition, from what I can tell (caveat below), big Canadian firms aren&#039;t yet suffering quite as badly from the downturn, so the likeliest outcome here is &quot;just&quot; a nasty recession. Not that that&#039;s much fun, but the industry here is both more resistant to change and less vulnerable to client pressure, so I don&#039;t see anything apocalyptic here in the foreseeable future.

(Caveat: it&#039;s very difficult to get an accurate read on the inner workings of big Canadian firms, and that&#039;s largely because the mainstream legal media (of which I&#039;m a member) doesn&#039;t dig too deeply into their affairs. There&#039;s no Canadian equivalent of Above The Law, for instance, or even The AmLaw 100, to investigate and reveal the profitability and personnel machinations within the major firms. Our national legal culture is far more circumspect about these kinds of things, and sometimes that&#039;s good and sometimes it&#039;s not.)

Anyway, the question still stands whether a Canadian law degree is  a good investment of your time and money right now. In that regard, I&#039;d still adopt the principles that I espoused in the post: even in a relatively secure marketplace like this one, you need to be as sure as possible that this is a career you&#039;re committed to. That&#039;s not because of the recession, it&#039;s because being a lawyer over the next 30 to 40 years is going to be a radically different line of work than it was for the preceding decades. If you&#039;re entering school this fall, you&#039;ll graduate in spring 2012 and get called in 2013; if you enter a law firm, you&#039;ll likely be eligible for partnership around 2020. No one knows what the practice of law will look like then, other than that it very probably won&#039;t look much like it did in 2000. 

So I don&#039;t think you can count on the existing business model to be much of a guide -- what you&#039;ll be doing day to day, how long you&#039;ll have to work, and how much you&#039;ll make all will change from today&#039;s expectations, thanks to a new competitive landscape and new client and market demands. What won&#039;t change, I hope, is the fundamental nature of legal professionalism: service, counsel, judgment, advocacy, analysis, trustworthiness, wisdom, doggedness and loyalty. If these things turn your crank, stick with a legal career, because if anything, they&#039;re going to become more prominent, not less, over time. If you regard these as nice-to-haves but essentially not that relevant to the prestige, income, gunslinging and power-broking of a legal career, you&#039;d be best advised to step off the elevator before it leaves the ground floor, because it&#039;s not going to bring you where you think.

My final thought on Canadian law practice is that the market conditions for solos and the demand for lawyers outside urban centers is going to start seriously increasing over the next few years and continue through the 2010s. Less than 10% of the Canadian legal profession is in firms of 50 lawyers or more, but there are scads of older solos in smaller communities who will soon have to retire, leaving a market vacuum behind them. We&#039;re running two feature articles in our upcoming Law Student Issue of National magazine: one on the business realities of running your own practice, and one on the career opportunities outside urban centers. They&#039;re not even written yet, but I recommend them both in advance. Check back in September at www.cba.org/students, when they&#039;ll be ready.

If I were entering law school today, I&#039;d be getting ready to spend the next three years learning about how to run my own practice upon graduation -- even if I got a job with a firm, I&#039;d want to have those skills and that knowledge. And I&#039;d start by reading Carolyn Elefant&#039;s &quot;Solo By Choice&quot; (reviewed elsewhere at Law21) and enrolling in SPU. Good luck, Graeme!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Graeme, you&#8217;re absolutely right that the Canadian new-lawyer entry system contains a lot more automatic stabilizers than the US or UK versions. In addition, from what I can tell (caveat below), big Canadian firms aren&#8217;t yet suffering quite as badly from the downturn, so the likeliest outcome here is &#8220;just&#8221; a nasty recession. Not that that&#8217;s much fun, but the industry here is both more resistant to change and less vulnerable to client pressure, so I don&#8217;t see anything apocalyptic here in the foreseeable future.</p>
<p>(Caveat: it&#8217;s very difficult to get an accurate read on the inner workings of big Canadian firms, and that&#8217;s largely because the mainstream legal media (of which I&#8217;m a member) doesn&#8217;t dig too deeply into their affairs. There&#8217;s no Canadian equivalent of Above The Law, for instance, or even The AmLaw 100, to investigate and reveal the profitability and personnel machinations within the major firms. Our national legal culture is far more circumspect about these kinds of things, and sometimes that&#8217;s good and sometimes it&#8217;s not.)</p>
<p>Anyway, the question still stands whether a Canadian law degree is  a good investment of your time and money right now. In that regard, I&#8217;d still adopt the principles that I espoused in the post: even in a relatively secure marketplace like this one, you need to be as sure as possible that this is a career you&#8217;re committed to. That&#8217;s not because of the recession, it&#8217;s because being a lawyer over the next 30 to 40 years is going to be a radically different line of work than it was for the preceding decades. If you&#8217;re entering school this fall, you&#8217;ll graduate in spring 2012 and get called in 2013; if you enter a law firm, you&#8217;ll likely be eligible for partnership around 2020. No one knows what the practice of law will look like then, other than that it very probably won&#8217;t look much like it did in 2000. </p>
<p>So I don&#8217;t think you can count on the existing business model to be much of a guide &#8212; what you&#8217;ll be doing day to day, how long you&#8217;ll have to work, and how much you&#8217;ll make all will change from today&#8217;s expectations, thanks to a new competitive landscape and new client and market demands. What won&#8217;t change, I hope, is the fundamental nature of legal professionalism: service, counsel, judgment, advocacy, analysis, trustworthiness, wisdom, doggedness and loyalty. If these things turn your crank, stick with a legal career, because if anything, they&#8217;re going to become more prominent, not less, over time. If you regard these as nice-to-haves but essentially not that relevant to the prestige, income, gunslinging and power-broking of a legal career, you&#8217;d be best advised to step off the elevator before it leaves the ground floor, because it&#8217;s not going to bring you where you think.</p>
<p>My final thought on Canadian law practice is that the market conditions for solos and the demand for lawyers outside urban centers is going to start seriously increasing over the next few years and continue through the 2010s. Less than 10% of the Canadian legal profession is in firms of 50 lawyers or more, but there are scads of older solos in smaller communities who will soon have to retire, leaving a market vacuum behind them. We&#8217;re running two feature articles in our upcoming Law Student Issue of National magazine: one on the business realities of running your own practice, and one on the career opportunities outside urban centers. They&#8217;re not even written yet, but I recommend them both in advance. Check back in September at <a href="http://www.cba.org/students" rel="nofollow">http://www.cba.org/students</a>, when they&#8217;ll be ready.</p>
<p>If I were entering law school today, I&#8217;d be getting ready to spend the next three years learning about how to run my own practice upon graduation &#8212; even if I got a job with a firm, I&#8217;d want to have those skills and that knowledge. And I&#8217;d start by reading Carolyn Elefant&#8217;s &#8220;Solo By Choice&#8221; (reviewed elsewhere at Law21) and enrolling in SPU. Good luck, Graeme!</p>
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		<title>By: Laurie</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-871&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-871</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 21:53:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-871</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m with Graeme, love to hear your perspective with a more Canadian slant. I&#039;m from Alberta and while I&#039;m no longer in a law office, I know the economy has certainly had some serious effects here and I personally would think the advice to truly think before you go to/finish law school would stand true here. Really, maybe this is a time for everyone, in ANY industry, to think hard about what they want to do and want kind of income is fair and reasonable. Should anyone spend $100,000 or $200,000 on an education nowadays?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Graeme, love to hear your perspective with a more Canadian slant. I&#8217;m from Alberta and while I&#8217;m no longer in a law office, I know the economy has certainly had some serious effects here and I personally would think the advice to truly think before you go to/finish law school would stand true here. Really, maybe this is a time for everyone, in ANY industry, to think hard about what they want to do and want kind of income is fair and reasonable. Should anyone spend $100,000 or $200,000 on an education nowadays?</p>
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		<title>By: Graeme</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-870&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-870</link>
		<dc:creator>Graeme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 21:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-870</guid>
		<description>Thanks for this article Jordan, I enjoy your site and was actually thinking of writing a similar question.  

I do have a follow-up question:  How do you see the situation for Canadian law graduates?  

I&#039;m accepted for school here in the fall, and am trying to make up my mind as to whether to go or not.  Differences I can think of include:

1.  The articling requirement
2.  Less overcapacity in our school system (though we still put out more graduates than articling positions, as far as I&#039;m aware).
3.  A legal system that was somewhat less leveraged, and an economy that is likely to weather the storm a bit better than down south.  

Your article draws mostly on US sources, but I know you&#039;re Canadian, so I&#039;d be interested in hearing your perspective.   Thanks,

Graeme</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for this article Jordan, I enjoy your site and was actually thinking of writing a similar question.  </p>
<p>I do have a follow-up question:  How do you see the situation for Canadian law graduates?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m accepted for school here in the fall, and am trying to make up my mind as to whether to go or not.  Differences I can think of include:</p>
<p>1.  The articling requirement<br />
2.  Less overcapacity in our school system (though we still put out more graduates than articling positions, as far as I&#8217;m aware).<br />
3.  A legal system that was somewhat less leveraged, and an economy that is likely to weather the storm a bit better than down south.  </p>
<p>Your article draws mostly on US sources, but I know you&#8217;re Canadian, so I&#8217;d be interested in hearing your perspective.   Thanks,</p>
<p>Graeme</p>
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		<title>By: Ron Fox</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-869&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-869</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 20:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-869</guid>
		<description>I agree with Susan and will certainly recommend the article to all who are searching.  I would also suggest that for current law students there is still time to learn the skills. First, while law schools traditionally do not prepare students to practice law, many do offer clinical and other  experiential courses. Take them! Second, immediately take Jordan&#039;s advice and choose an area of law that interests you. Find out from www.lawyers.com and your alumni/ae office who practices in that field in your geographic area. Next promote and market yourself to that group. Someone out there needs your help and will pay you to assist him or her during the summer and possibly during the academic year. With the experience and skills you have gained, you will have the confidence needed to go after part-time to full-time work after graduation. Illegitimi non carborundum!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Susan and will certainly recommend the article to all who are searching.  I would also suggest that for current law students there is still time to learn the skills. First, while law schools traditionally do not prepare students to practice law, many do offer clinical and other  experiential courses. Take them! Second, immediately take Jordan&#8217;s advice and choose an area of law that interests you. Find out from <a href="http://www.lawyers.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.lawyers.com</a> and your alumni/ae office who practices in that field in your geographic area. Next promote and market yourself to that group. Someone out there needs your help and will pay you to assist him or her during the summer and possibly during the academic year. With the experience and skills you have gained, you will have the confidence needed to go after part-time to full-time work after graduation. Illegitimi non carborundum!</p>
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		<title>By: Susan Cartier Liebel</title>
		<link>http://www.law21.ca/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&#038;feed=Comments+on+Articles+%28RSS2%29&#038;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.law21.ca%2F2009%2F05%2F19%2Fgraduating-into-a-recession%2F%23comment-868&#038;seed_title=Graduating+into+a+recession/comment-page-1/#comment-868</link>
		<dc:creator>Susan Cartier Liebel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 May 2009 19:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.law21.ca/?p=821#comment-868</guid>
		<description>Jordan,  this is a remarkable piece and one all law students and those who advise them should read.  And thank you for recognizing the true value of Solo Practice University.  It was our pleasure to give you a tour.  Come back anytime ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jordan,  this is a remarkable piece and one all law students and those who advise them should read.  And thank you for recognizing the true value of Solo Practice University.  It was our pleasure to give you a tour.  Come back anytime ;-)</p>
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